Game of Thrones S4E02 "Lion and the Rose" discussion:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/22yrz0/season_4_spoilers_premiere_discussion_402_the/

Post-episode analysis:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/04/14/game-of-thrones-the-lion-and-the-rose-review

Grantland:

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/game-of-thrones-recap-long-live-the-king/

Andy Greenwald says what we're feeling:

What tonight’s episode finally did — other than free up Jack Gleeson to attend divinity school full time — was burn away the last illusions of Westerosi nobility. Everything about Joffrey’s reign was diseased and illegitimate. Even he was illegitimate: The product of Lannister twincest, he had as much claim to the Baratheon name as Hot Pie. Even so, he served a purpose. He wasn’t a figurehead so much as he was a cork — something jammed into a hole in the world to keep chaos from spilling out. Last season, Littlefinger bragged about how, for some, chaos is a ladder. But for most people, certainly the ones who are going to die and die horribly as the war for the Iron Throne resumes in earnest, chaos is simply chaos. I’m not sure on the rules of Westerosi succession, but I can’t imagine Joffrey’s murder is going to contribute to the continent’s general air of peace and stability. Chaos makes for good television but a lousy life.

This is especially true when you see it up close. Though “The Lion and the Rose” will be remembered for Joffrey’s drinking problem, it ought to be reexamined for what it suggested about the type of world left in his wake. Joffrey was a son of a bitch, to be sure, but better the devil you know than the bastard waiting just around the bend. Ramsay Snow represents a barbarity that makes Joffrey’s brattiness seem almost adorable. The episode began with the sight of him hunting a young woman for sport, and it lingered on the aftereffects of his vicious flaytime with Theon last season. The Season 4 advertising for Thrones brags about how all men must die, but what House Bolton does to people is far worse. As awful as it was to see the once proud Theon shaking and twitching — though holding the razor steady when it mattered most — it was also fascinating, particularly the way Roose Bolton regarded him: as once valuable bait transformed into curious chum.

As I watched the Boltons smirk in their castle and Melisandre barbecue on the beach, I couldn’t help but wonder if it was evidence of a particularly bloody corner that George R.R. Martin may have painted himself into. If you build a nasty world on the twin pillars of stomach-turning savagery and ambiguous moral conflict — a world in which Jaime and Cersei Lannister can evolve from devils who casually toss a kid from a 10-story tower into people potentially deserving of sympathy — then, at a certain point, you’re going to have to keep lowering the floor. If Joffrey isn’t the worst this world has to offer, what is? Even Ramsay Snow must be scared of something. How gnarly are the chickens who have yet to come home to roost? (And how many of them will the Hound eat when they arrive?) I feel like a pretty savvyThrones watcher, but I was caught completely off guard by how Joffrey’s death made me feel. I was expecting relief. But what I experienced instead was dread. How low can this show possibly go?

I wonder why the name Snow? yet no relation to John Snow, yet he's a bastard child?  Maybe the same mother? or a commoner name?

Bastard children of the North are given the surname Snow:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy#Surnames

Bastard children of Dorne are given the surname Sand.

Ellaria Sand accompanies Oberyn Martell to the Joffrey-Margaery wedding.

Reddit comments: 

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/22z9dn/s4e2_best_quote_of_the_entire_episode/

Imgur comments: http://imgur.com/gallery/QcC5TzT

More from that scene:

http://pandawhale.com/post/41336/people-everywhere-have-their-differences-oberyn-s4e2

Meanwhile with Melisandre:

http://pandawhale.com/post/41376/theres-only-one-hell-princess-the-one-we-live-in-now-melisandre-gif

More about this line:

http://pandawhale.com/post/42159/go-drink-until-it-feels-like-you-did-the-right-thing-bronn

As a gif: http://pandawhale.com/post/42234/bronn-drink-until-it-feels-like-you-did-the-right-thing-gif

Thank you jhawk1729 for making these gifs:

jhawk made a whole album of S4E2 gifs: http://imgur.com/a/CSwsA

Discussion:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/22zmmu/s04e02_some_gifs_i_made_requests_taken/

By the way, that was a book every king should read.

http://pandawhale.com/post/41220/now-that-the-war-is-won-we-should-all-find-time-for-wisdom-tyrion-lannister

When Joffrey says thank you...

There were only four of those books left! Now there are only three.

Bran's Weirwood vision. http://imgur.com/a/AJYUE

Boop. http://gfycat.com/SelfishUnkemptComet

Queen of Thorns. http://imgur.com/gallery/tEblR

Varys is getting too old for this shit.

Season 2 foreshadowing:

Yeah the king is dead!

It's pretty clear Tyrion didn't do it.

So who did it? Margaery?

Oberyn Martell? Olenna Tyrell? Loras?

It wasn't planned ahead for Tyrion to handle Joffrey's cup.  I think it was definitely Margaery, no wonder she was always so sweet and accommodating with Joffrey, she knew she would be knocking him off shortly after the wedding.  If not her, it has to be someone close to her, she is the one who has gained tremendously from his death.  I've never wanted a character to go away so bad!

I think we're going to miss Joffrey as the devil we know -- I have this dread that what comes next is even worse!

Margaery really wanted to be Queen, so it makes no sense for her to kill him, because now she won't be Queen. I think his younger brother Tommen gets to be king now. You know that's going to be unstable.

Oberyn and Olenna make more sense.

Oberyn wants revenge for pre-Game of Thrones acts by the Lannisters.

And Olenna didn't want her granddaughter marrying Joffrey.

There's an outside chance Loras did it as revenge for Renly.

Or Tywin could have done it to get rid of both Joffrey and Tyrion, though that's unlikely since now he has an unstable power structure, too.

Sansa has motive but she's too much of a basket case to pull that off.

And you know that Varys and Littlefinger scene about chaos being a ladder? They're suspects too.

Oh, that's true, she may not be allowed to retain the role of queen, I assumed it would be automatic, not sure what the rules are of ascension in Westeros.

Remember that some people still think Stannis should have been the king, not Joffrey.

Especially since Joffrey wasn't actually Robert Baratheon's son.

But if you claim Joffrey was legitimate, as is the Lannisters public story, then the throne goes to his brother Tommen next. Especially since Margaery never consummated the marriage.

Poor Margaery is now officially a black widow: two would-be kings died with her as would-be wife!

Tommen is young and has barely been on the show:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon

...so you know this is going to create a power vacuum.

Promo for 4x03 "Breaker of Chains":

More gifs from this scene and comments: http://imgur.com/gallery/YXMM8

You're welcome. ~GRRM

http://pandawhale.com/post/41206/grrm-youre-welcome-tweet

I think Olenna could have passed something to Sansa .....

The writers want the viewers to be able to congratulate themselves when they (we) solve the mystery.  The answer is right there, staring at us.  MADDENING!

It sure does LOOK like Margaery, Olenna, and/or Oberyn have a hand in it.

I want it to be Sansa but she looked so clueless and had no getaway plan!

Here's another theory of what really happened, with spoilers: http://imgur.com/a/2DtPH

Reddit comments about that theory:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/230zv8/all_spoilers_how_it_really_happened_in_less_than/

Poor Tyrion threatened Cersei in season 2 -- makes him look worse!

Tyrion, you had one job!

Get any closer to solving the mystery of who killed Joffrey and why?

Tyrion did have motive, dating all the way back to season 1:

http://pandawhale.com/post/16987/tyrion-slapping-joffrey-gifs

Funny.  GRRM gave us a Red Wedding and now he's given us a Wedding of Red Herrings.  I think the eunuch, the fool and the crone could have pulled this off.  

It's possible. I know the eunuch is Varys but who's the fool and the crone?

Btw people are calling this the "Purple Wedding" but I like your name better.

Thanks.  :)  Dontos is the fool and Olenna is the crone.

I keep coming back to Varys.  He has a wizard in a box, for godsake.

They never did revisit that storyline, did they?

Dontos is likely a pawn of whoever planned this.

Varys and Littlefinger benefit most from the chaos created here, so my thinking is that one or both of them is the mastermind. Chaos, after all, is a ladder:

http://pandawhale.com/post/19898/chaos-is-a-ladder-quote-wallpaper

Oh and here's Olenna at the purple wedding:

I'm re-watching it this am, and keeping an eye on that cup!  but they may not show who did it.  The cup was totally empty when Joffrey dropped it, and made Tyrion pick it up, so it's some point after that ;)

Right! And I'm positive it's not Tyrion. Not his style.

Here's an incredibly good theory to watch for, Janill: http://imgur.com/gallery/0EQr6

Reddit comments about that theory:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/22zvn4/all_spoilers_how_it_happened_watch_closely/

If that theory is correct then you're right that all the clues are in the screenshots earlier on this page!

On my recording, in the middle of the midget 5 kings doing battle, Joffrey is besides himself with laughter, at 45 minutes he picks up his cup and drinks, at 46 minutes he spews out of his mouth, presumably wine, also I caught the names of each of the midget kings this time, and I believe it was Renly that had the large exposed rear end, then you watch Margaery's expression, and she comes across as almost as shell shocked as Sansa.  The remainder of that wine get's poured over Tyrion's head at 47 minutes, 48 minutes Joffrey drops the cup, 49 Sansa hands the cup to Tyrion (it doesn't look like she does anything to the cup, but this was an unforeseen opportunity), Tyrion fills the cup from a pitcher right in front of Cersei (could she be the poisoner?, maybe Joffrey has gotten out of her control, and it stops Margaery from gaining power ;) 50 minutes "Look the pie!" (tension breaks), Joffrey drinks, and hands the cup to Margaery, she sets it on the table, pie gets cut open, Joffrey gets back to badgering Tyrion, at 51 Tyrion hands the cup to Joffrey whom swigs, says mmm good, has another swig, and the coughing begins.  At 52 the guy that Sansa helped spare?, comes to her and says "Come with me milady", maybe it was him, he has reason to hate Joffrey, and to want to do right by Sansa, he repeats himself "come on milady, we have to leave".  At 53 minutes Joffrey is dead in his parents arms.

I think Cersei, the man whom came to Sansa, or someone connected to Margaery?

Not Cersei -- she wants to be mother of the King.

Not Margaery -- she wants to be Queen.

The man who Sansa helped spare makes sense, since Joffrey mocks Sansa's family ceaselessly.

This was premeditated, so someone you might not see (Oberyn or Olenna or Varys or Littlefinger or some combination of them) is probably more involved than we realize.

Perhaps another clue?

http://pandawhale.com/post/41262/ive-heard-it-said-that-poison-is-a-womans-weapon-yes-women-cravens-and-eunuchs-game-of-thrones-season-1

By the way, it's entirely possible the maker of the plan was not at the wedding.

Also: people who have read the books think they know the answer but the show is willing to deviate from the books so you never know.

...Stannis?

Reddit comments on that quote:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/233oe1/season4_ep2_my_favorite_quote_from_this_weeks/

But let's face it, the Stannis gif above from last season is spot on.

The Lord of the Light did it!

Mother of God.

Yeah, I guess Balon Greyjoy had better put his affairs in order.

The Lord of the Light does not mess around.

Jaime, no shoving. There's plenty of pie for everyone!

Reddit comments: 

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/2300mn/s4e2_theres_enough_to_go_around/

Wasn't there a shot of a dead dove in the pie?

It was just showing the cream inside the pie, but I thought the same thing first time I watched it.

They should rename the episode "The Wine or the Pie".  :)

Was it really the wine? or could it have been the pie?  Did others eat the pie?

Oh wow. It could have been the pie -- we didn't see anyone else eat the pie!

Meanwhile, a nice Loras-Jaime taunt:

A Lannister always repays his debts.

Yeah, I went there:

http://reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/236yzj/s4e2_dont_wait_until_its_too_late/

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/4/14/5612060/game-of-thrones-review-episode-4-joffrey

LOL:

Priceless history books destroyed: 1

Nonbelievers burned: 3

Little persons employed: 6

Glasses of wine spilled: at least 4

Avian Pie Escape Percentage: .938

Cersei being a capital "C": non-stop, really

Did Not Play - Coach's decision:

Arya (training to kill); Jon Snow (preparing to kill); Dany (marching to kill); snow zombies; the rest of Ellaria Sand; Joffrey's food taster; the Thenns; Jon's fat friend, Rickon, Grey Worm; new Daario; old Daario; Sandor Clegane; chickens; dragons; boobs.

Wow, we had a great episode and none of my favorite characters (except Tyrion) were in it!

More play by play with theories in the comments:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/recap-game-of-thrones-season-4-episode-2-the-lion-and-the-rose-is-a-nice-day-for-a-westeros-wedding-20140413

LOL:  "Thank the gods it’s not some kind of ritual murder, but still, let this be a lesson to us all: NEVER let a teenage boy plan a wedding."

Amen to that!

I wonder if Joffrey will turn into a walker?  he would be a really creepy one ;)  I love the mystery of this, it's so much better than a boring overly obvious show :)

How to become a White Walker: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/White_Walkers

And I'm loving it too! It's like a puzzle to figure out... Who did it and why?

Varys, season 2:2, "The big fish eats the little fish" speech....

I need to go back and read that again -- unless you happen to have a copy handy. 

I also need to go back and watch the chaos is a ladder speech in season 3. 

"Storms come and go, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling."  Varys

And from Season 1: Varys and Illyrio want the realm plunged into civil war to facilitate the Dothraki invasion under Khal Drogo and thus the revival of House Targaryen.

That's excellent. I need to find a picture of that quote!

Here's the chaos is a ladder speech:

http://pandawhale.com/post/19898/chaos-is-a-ladder-quote-wallpaper

I'm also finding the prequel infographic helpful here, too.

http://pandawhale.com/post/41050/game-of-thrones-prequel-infographic-from-oberyns-dialogue-with-tyrion-season-4-episode-1

I don't think the writers will let the mystery linger long. We'll find out soon enough whodunnit and why.

HBO's "Inside Season 4 Episode 2":

http://pandawhale.com/post/41412/game-of-thrones-season-4-inside-episode-2-the-lion-and-the-rose-purple-wedding

Best of King Joffery: